Συνέντευξη
Daniel Harms
John Gonce
Daniel Harms
John Gonce
"Το Νεκρονομικόν είναι μια Απάτη!"
Μια εξαιρετική αν και σύντομη συνέντευξη των Harms και Gonce, τους συγγραφείς του μνημειώδες βιβλίου απάντηση στη necronomicomania, The Necronomicon Files: The Truth Behind the Legend (2003). Το interview δημοσιεύτηκε στο Αμερικάνικο περιοδικό Paranoia, από όπου και το αναδημοσιεύω…
What is The Necronomicon?
Daniel Harms
The Necronomicon was a fictional book mentioned in the stories of a twentieth-century horror and science fiction writer. Since then, it's become something of an underground phenomenon - movies, books, stories, poems, music, computer games, T-shirts, you name it.
John Gonce
The Necronomicon is an imaginary book of spells and forbidden lore that could be used to summon a group of imaginary extraterrestrial demons called the Great Old Ones. The book's contents are supposedly so terrible that the reader might go insane if he or she found any correlation between the contents of the book and events or artifacts in the "real" world. The idea of this terrible, forbidden book grew out of horror fiction.
What intrigued you about The Necronomicon rumors enough to write a book?
Daniel Harms
I blame John, frankly. He made the first inquiries and got me interested in the hoax Necronomicons. After that, it was one of those topics that you realize that has all sorts of different facets, and it intrigued me that no one else was working on it.
John Gonce
What intrigued me was the realization that so many people believed in this fictional spellbook, and believed that hoaxed versions of the book were authentic. People have taken one forged version of The Necronomicon so seriously that they've built cults around it and used it to practice magic.
Who is H.P. Lovecraft and how does he fit into all of this?
Daniel Harms
Howard Phillips Lovecraft lived from 1890-1937, and during that time he wrote a number of pioneering works for the horror and science fiction genres. It was his creative genius that gave birth to The Necronomicon. The book appeared in his stories for the pulp magazines, starting with "The Hound" written in 1922. As time went on, other writers for the pulps used The Necronomicon in their own stories, and people started to wonder whether it could be real. We should remember that Lovecraft didn't seek for anyone to be fooled into thinking the book was real. People wrote him to ask, and he'd always write them back to say that he made it up. Near the end of his life, he was concerned because so many people thought it was real. By then his health was failing and his money was running out, so he never really had a chance to say much about it.
John Gonce
H.P. Lovecraft was the greatest horror fiction writer of the 20th century. His work was unique because his perspective was cosmic rather than human, and he blended genres like science fiction and horror in ways undreamt of before. Unfortunately, he was also the accidental creator of The Necronomicon hoax. Lovecraft created the idea of a mind-shattering spellbook called The Necronomicon to make his horror fiction more entertaining. But Lovecraft himself had no intention of making people believe that this imaginary spellbook was real. It was Lovecraft's readers who got the idea that The Necronomicon might be real, and various opportunists took Lovecraft's idea of a forbidden book, and ran with it like a football. In his own lifetime, readers would occasionally write to Weird Tales asking where they could find a copy of The Necronomicon. The editor of Weird Tales, Farnsworth Wright, would pass such letters along to Lovecraft, who would dutifully write to the misguided seeker, and explain that there was no Necronomicon. Lovecraft said he always felt guilty when he heard that someone had wasted his or her time looking for his imaginary book.
In a world filled with strife and violence, does any of this really matter?
Daniel Harms
It may not matter as much as what's on the front page of the newspapers, but the phenomenon's been out there for some time, gathering steam. Looking at The Necronomicon is a microcosm of many pertinent issues for our culture - the friction that develops between fact and fiction, belief and doubt, reason and emotion. We raise those issues quietly, but we leave them for the reader to sort out.
John Gonce
It matters precisely because this is a world filled with strife and violence. Our research has shown that The Necronomicon hoax has added significantly to all that strife and violence. When solid evidence points to the fact that the most well-known Necronomicon forgery has become a "bible" for countless destructive dabbler cults, and may have inspired several sociopaths to commit murder, I'd say that it matters very much indeed! If it were only an issue of readers wasting their money and energy on a forged spellbook that has become an occult bestseller, this would still be a topic worth addressing. But the repercussions of this hoax go far beyond fraud. This hoax has a body count.
Your book may seem to be an attack on some people's beliefs. How would you answer those who are offended?
Daniel Harms
Anyone who's offended by our book needs to sit down and think about why it does so. They're free to try to refute us. We've given the reader everything they need to construct a counter-argument, if they so choose.
John Gonce
Get over it! (laughs) Yes, Daniel and I have been accused of being rather intolerant on the subject of the Necronomicon hoax. I think the offended "true believers" should try to put themselves in my shoes for a moment. I try to honor other people's beliefs, and to promote freedom for people to indulge in whatever kind of behavior they enjoy, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. But whenever I try to be indiscriminately tolerant of anything and everything, I eventually run smack into a moral/ethical brick wall that makes me say, "I can tolerate anything but this!" For example, I am a great believer in sexual freedom. The sexual revolution that started back in the 60s was basically a good thing: it allowed gays to come out of the closet, it opened dialogs between people, and it gave people more freedom of self-expression.
Unfortunately, child pornography became more readily available as a result of this revolution. I can't just tolerate the sexual abuse of children in the name of freedom. So instead of saying "I tolerate everything," I have to say, "I tolerate everything but this." By the same token, I try to be a pluralist and tolerate other people's beliefs: "All paths are valid," and all that rubbish. But when I encounter a so-called "path" built on a foundation of lies that is used to deceive and manipulate, and causes harm wherever its influence is found, I have to say, "I tolerate everything but this." I would love to quote Cole Porter, and say, "anything goes" as my policy, but I just can't. I would also like to point out that some of the Necro-nerds and the "true believers" don't exactly take a live-and-let-live policy themselves, as is shown by a couple of death threats that have been left on the guest book of our website www.necfiles.org.
What impact do you think your book will have upon the Pagan community?
Daniel Harms
It's not as if this book will shake the Pagan world to its foundations. Most people knew The Necronomicon copies that are on the market were hoaxes, though they might not have been able to say why that was true. The general response has been, "Thank you! Now I know what to say to the people who think it's true!" On a broader level - not just the Pagans, but the occult world in general - the book raises questions about the ethics of mystification. Occultism thrives on mysteries and questionable origin stories. What the book forces people to ask is whether this is a proper attitude in the twenty-first century. I'd say mysteries can do some good and help people in their mystical pursuits, but they're tools that should be used carefully and with consideration, especially when people are putting their resources (time, money, emotional energy) into a teacher or group.
John Gonce
Daniel doesn't seem to think its impact will be all that great, but then, he suffers from terminal pessimism and chronic humility. (laughs) Frankly, I hope it will make the Pagan community more aware of the way in which the various Necro-hoaxes have been used for anti-Pagan propaganda. There are idiot preachers with talk shows out there trying to convince people that the Simon Necronomicon is standard reading for Wiccans. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. Beyond that, I can't say with any certainty, but I hope it will have some positive influence on both the Pagan world and the occult community at large. I hope it will have some influence on Pagan scholarship, which is usually conspicuous by its absence. (laughs) I hope it will make Pagans and other occultists more skeptical in evaluating metaphysical literature. In Necronomicon Files, we deconstructed the hoax and we explained our methodologies so that others can use our techniques. Necronomicon Files is not so much a book as it is a concept or a world-view of enlightened Fortean skepticism. I suppose you could call it Fortean Paganism or Fortean occultism.
Why has nobody else done this kind of work before?
Daniel Harms
The book falls into one of those curious areas in belief. The people who believe in it are sure they're right, and the people who don't are sure as well. I'll admit we came in with the latter group, but we decided to sit down and examine the arguments of both sides closely. We didn't change our view, though we did find a great deal of surprising information.
John Gonce
I think there are three reasons why nobody ever tried this kind of thing before: fear, laziness, and lack of knowledge. The main "fear" I'm referring to is fear of pissing off other people in the occult community. Since Daniel and I were newcomers to the field of metaphysical writing, neither of us had the good sense to be afraid of making other occultists angry. Nobody had the balls to do this kind of work until two fearless idiots named Harms and Gonce came along. (laughs) I think other authors were also afraid of taking the risk that this kind of work involves. Not just the risk of having Necro-nerds throw black magic at them, but the risk of writing something that might not sell well. I guess you could say Necronomicon Files is "cutting edge", but the problem with being on the cutting edge is that you tend to get cut. (laughs)
It's dangerous to write stuff that is genuinely unconventional, or to take an original approach to a familiar subject. That's why many writers stick with the same old safe, worn-out formulas. Laziness was also probably a big factor; because deconstruction of a complex hoax requires a great deal of hard work! Even dismantling a simple Necronomicon forgery, like the de Camp version, can require a daunting amount of research. Lack of knowledge was probably the main reason no one has ever done this kind of work before. Many aboveground Pagans and occultists have no idea how seriously some people take Necronomicon forgeries. Though they may normally be fearless about stating their views, many conventional, traditional occultists have never addressed The Necronomicon phenomenon because they just didn't know how important it was.
What types of crimes are associated with The Necronomicon, and what makes this hoax so dangerous?
Daniel Harms
Assessing the impact of The Necronomicon on crime is a tough problem. Most police officers aren't trained in understanding the occult, or (worse) are trained badly. When they encounter a crime with strange aspects, they just try to do their best to figure out what's going on. They pass their interpretations on to journalists, who are also not trained in understanding the occult. By the time it reaches us, it's a mess already. John and I get plenty of reports of crimes where a hoax Necronomicon is found on the scene. We usually just sigh and toss those in the files, because there's no occult motivation behind them. Still, we've got a couple of cases in the book that we feel are Necronomicon-inspired, and I think I've heard of one or two more. I hope the book raises awareness of these issues and encourages people to examine them more closely. What makes The Necronomicon lead to crime? I'm not sure we can blame any book for a person's actions. However, one of the hoaxes - the one written by Simon - may encourage people to commit violent acts. You have a philosophy - helping the Old Ones return - and a blueprint - ritual sacrifice - for that procedure, and I wonder why the authors weren't more wary about handing that out on the streets.
John Gonce
As I mentioned in our book, I think the Simon Necronomicon may encourage the homicidal inclinations of certain individuals, because it encourages certain types of sacrifice, including human sacrifice. But I think we must refrain from holding a book entirely responsible for some sick individual's behavior. In the Middle Ages, it was not uncommon to hear of a spellbook being tried in court alongside the sorcerer who used it. I'm trying to avoid that inquisitional mentality, and I'm trying to avoid censorship as well. However, I will not minimize the possible role of The Necronomicon in violent crimes. Certainly we cannot blame a book entirely for a person's actions, but we cannot ignore the influence a book may have had on his actions. Many of the "crimes" related to The Necronomicon actually involve behavior commonly found in destructive cults: extortion, sexual harassment, mind-control, and so forth. For reasons I explain in the book, the Simon Necronomicon lends itself easily as a "bible" for small dabbler cults.
Do you think the magick in The Necronomicon actually works, and if so, why shouldn't people use it?
Daniel Harms
John, this one's all yours.
John Gonce
If the magic in The Necronomicon works, it only works because the user believes in the book, and believes its magic will work. If the history of occultism has taught us anything, it has taught us that anything can work if powered by enough faith. The problem with the magic in the Necrohoaxes in general, and with the Simon Necronomicon in particular, is that the magical rituals themselves are structured poorly. In the case of the Simon book, the rituals are deliberately designed to backfire on the user. While enough blind faith will make any magical system work, you'll get better results if you are using a good system. Any job goes better if you use the right tools. If you are strong enough, you can smash a tree down with a sledgehammer, but it is wiser to cut it down with a sharp axe. Why shouldn't people use The Necronomicon to practice magic? Why shouldn't a proctologist use a chainsaw to remove hemorrhoids In the case of the Simon book, they shouldn't use it because [1] the goals of the rituals are stupid, and [2] the rituals are deliberately designed to backfire on the operator - for reasons I explain in our book.
Historically, there has never been much in the way of literary criticism and debunking in occult and metaphysical literature. Would you say that The Necronomicon Files represents a new genre of occult literature?
Daniel Harms
Have we started a genre? I won't touch that one - it's far too early to tell. Still, I think that the occult has been a difficult subject to debunk. Almost all of the people who care enough to study it at any length are usually sympathetic to it, and either are emotionally invested or don't think anyone would really be fooled because they're not. Don't get me wrong - most occultists are concerned with particular charlatans and predators. They don't want to see these people take advantage of anyone, and they often work to prevent it. On the other hand, few have questioned what techniques and philosophies these people use to set themselves up, and how the broader occult community fits into it. I don't seek to condemn anyone with these doubts. I want people to ask the questions, though.
John Gonce
Yes, I suppose you could say Necronomicon Files represents a new genre of metaphysical literature. But I hate the term "debunking"; it makes me think of the Amazing Randi taking cheap shots at Yuri Geller. What Dan and I do is not "debunking" (whatever that is). It's deconstruction. We deconstruct occult hoaxes, and subject occult works to a kind of textual criticism, and a skeptical, scholarly analysis. But most readers think "scholarly" is a synonym for "boring", so Daniel and I have deliberately made our work as entertaining as possible. Necronomicon Files is also a kind of cross-genre book whose diverse elements include Lovecraft scholarship, magical practice, occult history, Assyriology, movie reviews, crime documentation - all of which makes it difficult to decide which bookshelf it belongs on. The book is so hard to pigeonhole that I guess it might qualify as a new genre by default. Nobody else does this kind of work... yet. One book does not a "genre" make, but if somebody else emulates what we do, then I guess we'll have a new genre. Whether Necronomicon Files represents a new genre or not, at least it's not the kind of fluff-headed metaphysical book that has an outhouse symbol on the spine, a cover stolen from a romance novel, an author with an animal name, and sites no references to verify its "research."
Has The Necronomicon shown up in movies, or other mainstream media?
Daniel Harms
It's hit the big time. I mean, it's shown up on The Simpsons. We had seals from one of the hoax Necronomicons on the cover of a Rob Zombie CD. There's not much that's in the public mind at any time, but it is out there.
John Gonce
Does the Pope wear funny hats? Yes indeed! It has been featured in everything from Saturday morning cartoons to pornographic Japanese anime. You can hardly throw a rock in the horror section of Blockbuster without hitting a movie that shows some conscious or unconscious influence from The Necronomicon. The published hoaxes have also worked their way into both mainstream and alternative culture. I've seen people with sigils from the Simon Necronomicon tattooed on their bodies.
What would you say on the subject of occult crimes? What are occult crimes?
Daniel Harms
Occult crimes are crimes in which belief in the occult inspires the criminal act itself. It should not be applied to crimes in which one of the parties believes in the occult, or where occult books or paraphernalia are found at the scene or in one of the parties' possession. It's a definition I'd like to see accepted more widely, but I'm not optimistic at this point. There's some people doing good work in this area, but there's a number who aren't, and some of them are influential. I should state that occult crime is not a label with which I'm entirely happy, but it does seem to be more accurate than some of the others I've seen.
John Gonce
First off, I'd like to point out that I hate the term "occult crime" - it's imprecise, awkward, and misleading. But if I have to use the term to be understood, I would at least like to define it. So-called "occult crime" is criminal activity that is inspired by occult or magical beliefs, or criminal activity in which occult beliefs are used as an excuse or a justification for the crime. Obviously, this excludes crimes in which occult books, tools, or weapons just happened to be found at the crime scene. There are a few (very few) law enforcement individuals who are doing some very good work in this misunderstood area. One of the best is my friend Tony Kail.
From our research, it appears that most occult crime is not committed by serious adult occultists, nor by some imaginary Satanic conspiracy escaped from a Dennis Wheatley novel. Most occult crime is committed by small teenage dabbler cults composed of kids who got their ideas about magic from horror movies, Anton LeVey's books, and the Simon Necronomicon. Many of the conspiracy theorists and Christian fundamentalists back in the 80s were convinced that there was a global Satanic conspiracy performing cattle mutilations, child abuse and sacrificial murders on a daily basis. They thought they were battling the Illuminati or the Trilateral Commission. Instead, they were up against the Satanic equivalent of Wayne's World.
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